In my previous post on godly men, Jenn challenged me to do a similar post on women- without offending anyone. So, I will try my best to talk about attributes/characteristics of godly women, but I won't make any promises about not offending anyone ;-)
The main passages of Scripture that come to mind when I think of a picture of a godly woman are Proverbs 31, 1 Peter 3, 1 Timothy 2:9-10. So, I thought I'd tackle this by listing each of the characteristics brought out in these passages.
Prov 31:
-A godly woman is a woman of noble character: someone of good character and reputation.
-She is a hard worker.
-She takes care of her family (if applicable).
-She is generous to the needy.
-If married, she enhances the reputation of her husband because of her character.
-She has a good outlook on life.
-She is wise and speaks wisdom to others.
-Above all, she fears God- knows God, is growing, seeks first His kingdom.
1 Peter 3:
-She is submissive to the authority God has placed in her life (husband, church leaders, workplace, civil authority, etc).
-She lives a lifestyle characterized by purity and holiness that serves as a testimony to others.
-Her true beauty comes from within, not from things like fancy clothes, makeup, or showing off body parts.
1 Timothy 2:9-10:
-She dresses modestly.
-She lives a life rich in good deeds.
These are the major passages that deal with attributes of godly women. However, the Bible is also contains some good examples of women who lived these out (Ruth for example). And, of course, there are a lot of more general attributes listed in the Bible that are applicable to both men and women (obedience, faithfulness, love, generosity, hope, joy to name a few).
Just think of how much better off our churches and families would be if we all truly made an effort to live into the Biblical mold for what our lives should look like, as opposed to trying to conform to what this society says they should. But, such an effort isn't easy, won't happen overnight and requires that we depend on God. Those are my first thoughts on this question... I welcome further insight or questions.
-JRO
13 comments:
I was reading through this saying, "Yep, uh-huh, agreed," until I got to this part:
-She is submissive to the authority God has placed in her life (husband, church leaders, workplace, civil authority, etc).
I have a problem thinking of my husband as the authority in our relationship. He should lead in certain areas, but I think we are equals when it comes to our value in the relationship, our contributions to the relationship, making decisions, etc. I don't think it should ever be a situation where, when in doubt, his way goes. I could never marry a man who thought he was superior to me or who thought he was in control of me in some way.
Are my thoughts on that Biblical? I'm not really sure. I do know it's something I feel strongly about, and the way my personality is, I couldn't be happily married to somebody who felt otherwise.
I think there's a general misunderstanding today on what Biblical submission means. The Bible does call wives to submit to their husbands and believers to submit to each other in general- that is clear. However, I think because we see examples of people abusing this all around us, our understanding of submission isn't what was really intended.
It doesn't mean that one person is superior to the other, controlling the other, or lording this authority over the other. Rather, it's a voluntary attitude where you recognize or affirm the leadership of the other within the appropriate context. Here's a couple quotes I found that seem to explain it better than I could:
"Submission refers to a wife’s divine calling to honor and affirm her husband’s leadership and help carry it through according to her gifts. It is not an absolute surrender of her will. Rather, we speak of her disposition to yield to her husband’s guidance and her inclination to follow his leadership."
-Submission is not putting the husband in the place of Christ as if the husband is some sort of absolute authority.
-Submission does not mean giving up independent thought.
-Submission does not mean that a wife should give up her efforts to influence and guide her husband.
-Submission does not mean that a wife should give into every demand of her husband.
-Submission is not based on a woman having less intelligence or competence.
(all those quotes from Ligon Duncan)
"Being submissive to your husband" means that a wife will willingly submit to her husband’s authority and leadership in the marriage.
(Wayne Grudem)
I also think to see a full picture of Biblical submission within marriage you need to look at the command in Ephesians. A wife is called to submit to a husband who is loving his wife as Christ loved the church. If a husband is doing that, then it should be easy to submit to his leadership, knowing that he's looking out for her good above his own.
Does this make sense?
One passage reads: Submission does not mean that a wife should give up her efforts to influence and guide her husband.
Another passage reads: Rather, we speak of her disposition to yield to her husband’s guidance and her inclination to follow his leadership.
It appears to me that the author(s) above is/are saying (and correct me if I'm wrong): a wife can try to influence her husband, but if he won't be influenced, she should "yield to his guidance", or, stated a different way, do it his way. Not a fan.
These passages as a whole also communicate a broader idea: submitting should actually be an honor - the wise thing to do - instead of a duty because the husband should know best anyway.
I have a very hard time buying into that. I'm not arguing that it isn't Biblical. I've just never met a man who knew what was best for me more than I did ;-)
Woo hoo! A hot topic! Alright, submission, here are my thoughts. I believe that the husband is the leader of the family. If a decision arises, he is the one who makes the ultimate decsion. But, out of love for his wife, he should consult her for these decisions (Eph. 5:25-33). A man, though, is not to get a power trip and just do whatever the heck he wants. The husband is supposed to love and respect his wife-he is not doing so if he refuses to consider her thoughts or ideas (Eph 5:25). So, what happens when a wife feels that her husband is making a morally wrong decision...that it goes against the moral will of God? Does 1 Peter 3:1-2 cover this? I'm not sure, maybe so...? Does this mean that even if our husband is making a decision that goes against what we believe, we must go along with it? Is there a difference between submitting to moving somewhere even if we "feel" that it's the wrong place to move and submitting to getting an abortion? Yeah, those are two very different issues, but they are both decisions that are made within families/marriages.
When it comes down to it, in a perfect marriage, the man would seek after God's will and do what pleases God and love his wife and include her in the decisions and talk with her about everything, but ultimately make the decision. Then the decision he made would make everyone happy. But, that's not ever going to happen, we are not perfect. Men are going to make mistakes and wives are going to have to submit to things that they do not necessarily like. God would never put us in a situation that he could not help us with....so sometimes we have to go to God and ask him for help. I think that maybe men have a hard time with this sometimes...maybe? It's easy to get on a power trip. If women were put in this role, we'd have the same issues.
Alright, there are my thoughts...it's not an easy topic and it's one I've thought about several times, of course (I am one who might have to submit one day!).
OK, here's an interesting question that Gary and I came up with this evening along these lines: what would be an example of a situation where a husband and wife couldn't make a decision by consensus and it would have to come down to a husband putting his foot down? We really couldn't seem to think of any because it seems like if two people genuinely love Christ and each other, then they'd be able to discuss, reason, weigh options, etc. and be able to reach a decision or put off making a decision until some clarity can be reached. Of course, this means that sometimes he would make sacrifices and other times she would. I don't think a relationship where one person always got his or her way would be a healthy one.
After all, if a married couple is one flesh, then maybe we should look at it differently than what he wants vs. what she wants in a situation like this. If the two are working and functioning together as one, then that decision making process would look a lot different than two individuals making a mutual decision (like two people dating, two friends, business partners, etc).
And, on the other side of it, I think it means men have a huge responsibility to love their wives and earn their respect. I think the two go together: a woman wouldn't want to submit to a man who didn't genuinely love her, a man would have a harder time showing love to a woman who didn't respect him.
By the way, why is it that my most popular posts seem to involve stuff dealing with men and women?? :-) I think I'll do something lighter tomorrow.
Well Jamie....I agree with everything you've said. Shock and horror haha. Just kidding. I think that one of the reasons I haven't dated much is that I have no problem with the idea of submission. I have no problem with it because I realize that it doesn't mean I lose my indepence or ability to make decisions; it simply means that I finally found someone who I trust to make godly decisions for the family if for some reason we can't come to a consensus. He is a man who seeks God's will in all things and who I respect enough to trust to make the right decision if for some reason after much discussion we can't come to a consensus. Now I don't think he has any right to tell me what to do nor do I have the right to tell him what to do. There is such a peace in being able to trust someone so much that you know that even though you don't agree, you aren't making decisions to hurt the other person. It's similar to the trust we have in God; and after all is marriage not a symbol for that?
I get all riled up about this ;-) I guess I come at this with the notion that marriage doesn't always work as ideally as some of you describe it (husband seeking after God 100% of the time and always making the best, wisest decisions in the event of a disagreement with wifey).
Frankly, I hope my husband and I never have a conversation about who submits to who. I don't even want that to be an issue or something we think about. We make decisions together, we compromise, neither one of us automatically gets the final say about anything. It's a partnership, not a hierarchy.
Jenn you and I agreed on what you just said about it not working 100% of the time, you're not the only one with that idea ;-). But, nothing that God calls us to do works 100% of the time for us. We make mistakes and we must own up to them and ask for forgiveness from them. Some things are hard concepts to grasp in the bible, especially ones that society tells us is "wrong". But that doesn't mean that we can tailor-make our own rules about life...even though I try to so very hard sometimes.
If you never have a conversation about who submits to who, it seems like that part of the bible doesn't matter. When you use the word hierarchy, it seems negative. I do, though, think that the bible is clear about wives submitting to husbands. So, wives, chose your husbands carefully! ;-)
I like what Elizabeth said about it being a trust thing. Sure, he's not going to make the right choice 100% of the time, but if the person you marry truly loves you and seeks to honor God, then he's not going to make a decision that doesn't have your best interest in mind and doesn't consider your thoughts on the matter. Like Jamie said, I challenge you to come up with a realistic example of a time a marriage when a major decision has to be made and a couple that really loves each other and loves God can't come up with some kind of agreement. And as far as minor decisions go, it seems to me like in most cases both members of the couple get their way sometimes and don't get their way sometimes. I mean, I guess technically if a couple absolutely can't come to an agreement, then the decision is going to fall to the man by default. I wouldn't say it means he's lording over her so much as it means he's showing that responsibility you were so keen on in your comment on Jamie's last post.
All that being said, however, I certainly understand where you're coming from. Even being a man, my natural mind wants so say that women shouldn't have to submit, that they're just as capable of making a wise decision as men. And that's true. They definitely are. But, no matter how much I may dislike it, God's word is pretty clear on the matter. If it says that wives should submit to their husbands, then wives should submit to their husbands. You can't just pick and choose the verses you like to suit your own ideas of how life should be, although I think we're all guilty of that sometimes.
I asked my mom and some people at work about their interpretation and opinion of submission. I got some interesting responses:
Scott (co-worker): We had a long conversation about this so I can't give direct quotes, but Scott said it was important to consider the time when the Bible was written and the role women played in that society. He equated it to how Middle Eastern women are treated today - absolutely no equality. On the other hand, he was unsure how God would have us treat the issue today. If we're commanded to obey the law of the land, where women are given the same rights today as men are, then why wouldn't that extend to marriage? I think that's a good point. He concluded that if I wanted to adhere absolutely to the Bible, then submission would be in order. Then he made a smart joke about how much better the world would be if all women took such a (submissive) position :-P
My mom: "It might be best in this situation for you to keep your liberal feminist ideas to yourself...but just know that if you submit to any man, you're out of my will."
That was less than helpful. So the Bible isn't the word of God then? It's simply based on cultural ideas of the time and it's not universal to all times and occassions? Or is God simply a chauvanist who hates women and wants to see them all chained to the oven in a burka? Either God is God and he has a reason for what he "inspired" or The Bible is just another book, a collection of suggestions like Chicken Soup for the Soul. Honestly, Jenn, not to be harsh, but if you have a problem with the word of God, it's you that has the problem, not the word.
But again, it's really not as tough as you're making it. You're still stuck in the mindset that submission means you're giving up all your own ideas and freedom. You probably have this idea in your head of some dainty Southern wife saying, "Yes, sir, Mr. Husband. Whatever you say goes." I know that's not what I want in a wife and I'm pretty sure that's not what Jamie wants or what Elizabeth or Maggie want to be. In a true biblical relationship, the husband is giving up just as much as the wife, if not more. If you're not willing to give up a part of yourself to another person and take on a new identity, then you've got a screwed up idea of what marriage is. That's the whole point, isn't it? You put the other person ahead or yourself no matter which side you're own. You both give up a part of yourself to become a single entity. Sure, there are parts of that that suck, but isn't the thought of knowing that there's someone who loves you completely and wants the best for you in ever situation, even if it's not what they'd prefer worth it?
That was really harsh. I was just giving some other opinions. I'm not saying I have a problem with God, and I've never said that submission isn't Biblical. I just said I have issues with it; I happen to struggle with a lot of things that are Biblical. It's called being human.
I also don't appreciate being told I have a screwed up idea of what marriage is. I think you can state your opinion without being offensive.
If you'll notice, in both cases I said, "if." I know you were paraphrasing your friend and not giving your own opinion, but I assume you must at least see some validity in his ideas or you wouldn't have posted them without clarifying that you disagree. The same goes for the marriage thing. I never said that you have the wrong idea of what marriage is, just that if you don't think it's about giving up parts of yourself then you do. And I mean "you" in the general sense, not just you, Jennifer White, personally.
I guess I misunderstood your "issues" maybe. You're right that we all have "sin" if that's what you mean by issues. I have "issues" with not spending enough time with God, with lusting, with not treating people the way I would like to be treated, but I recognize those things as sin and would never try to argue that I'm doing the right thing. That's where I saw the difference. It seemed like you were trying to argue against biblical submission, not saying that it's hard for you to understand or that it's something you're working on getting past. I mean, you did say, "I couldn't be happily married to someone who felt otherwise." So if you mean that we all have sin in our lives and it's something you're working on, then I apologize for thinking you meant otherwise. And yes, I could have worded things less harshly, but "that's the way my personality is." :oÞ
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